Masters Categories
Submitted by RonMillerPT on 8/19/2008 - 12:44pm
I have noticed several of the regional and national races offering Master's A & B (and sometimes C) categories. I would like to propose that the Idaho series do the same. We currently have one master category, but have masters riders competing in everything from A to D. With the number of riders over the age of 35 we could easily have two competitive categories. It could be as simple as having the "A" masters race with the "A" group and the "B" masters racing with the "B" group, they would then be scored separately. If people did not feel that they would be competitive in A or B they could race the general categories of C or D (until they got good enough to kick everyone's butt).
Comments
Masters Categories
Here is what they are doing for the MooseCross race in Victor.
Juniors Men and Women U18 11:30-11:50 (20 min)
Master Men 35+, 45+ 12:05-12:45 (40 min) scored separate
Cat 4 (Beginner) Women 12:55 -1:30 (35 min)
Cat 4/5 (Beginner) Men 1:40-2:15 (35 min)
Cat 3 (Intermediate) Men 2:25 -3:10 (45 min)
Cat 1/2/3 (Intermediate/Expert) Women 3:20-4:20 (1 hour)
Cat 1/2 (Expert) Men 4:30-5:30 (1 hour)
Seems to like a good plan. Maybe for the Boise races combine the Cat 4 women and Cat 4 men to make the race fuller. My personal opinion is that if I am racing as a 52 year old master, then that is what I am. Not and "A", "B", "C" or "D".
Change of Heart
OK. I can admit I might me wrong. Just finished some cross practice with a friend of mine who is a Master 35+. As he informed me, with out at least and "A" and "B", he will have to compete against Richard Feldman.
So how about an "A" and "B" and have a Sport class similar to MTB.
Master's Grouping
I am up for a Master's A and Master's B (35+ and 45+) grouping this season. I think we will have enough people to hopefully justify it.
MikeO, I think it is highly unlikely that your friend will have to race with Richard. If so, well Richard is technically a Master's rider and if this was any other large city you never know when some fast pro, or ex-pro will show up. I am not willing to dumb down the groups just in case someone fast that is in your group shows up and decides to actually race in their category instead of racing up. That is part of racing.
I will be enforcing that people race in their category which is shown on their racing license in my events. My races are insured and officiated by USA Cycling so I will be sticking to their rules. I warned everyone of this last year, its time to get a "little" more official here in my opinion. We certainly want to keep it fun but people racing in their assigned category should help keep it more fair for everyone. If you feel you aren't up to the category you are assigned to then ask for a downgrade. If you end up winning too much in the lower category you will just be moved up again. If not, then that is probably were you belong.
The A, B, C groups etc have never been what you are. You have always been a Master, Cat 4, Cat 3, etc as the results show. You just started with a certain group of other riders.
Anyway, my 2 cents
Right on.
My license says I am a Cyclocross 3 and my racing age is 52. My choice I guess. Masters "A" or "B" 45+ or 3.
Anyone going to Victor?
If you call the motel that David Bergart suggests you can get the racer discount. Made my reservations for the weekend yesterday.
Hope to see some familiar faces there.
Master's
For over 35's I would really like to see a masters "A" that races with the A group and then a "B" that races with the B group. There are a lot of over 35's that would like to be able to race in the top division but be scored with their age group. There are several people beside R. Feldman who could whip up on that group. It would be very competitive and provide great training for the bigger national level races.
Masters
So where do the Masters 45+ "A"'s race? In the "A" group and the Masters 45+ "B"s race in the "B" Group?
Just do what the roadies do...
Masters B is cat 3/4
Masters A is cat 1/2/3
This way a strong 3 can race up or down.
Honestly I don't care if I'm lining up against R.F. or Ron Miller. What I really don't want to do is race with people easily young enough to be my children. That means that I would strongly dislike racing Masters B or Masters A with the Cat 2's or 3's or 4's.
Just start all of the Masters together and score separately. The older guys should be able to race by themselves without a mass start of "children" getting in the way.
:^)
Older Guys.
What about us old guys with walkers and canes mucking up the start?
Man, all this talk about "Old Guys" is starting to bring me down. Even my eight year old son looks at my bikes and asks "Can I have this one when you die?". Like the end is soon.
:>(
Master's Groupings
I will have to think about it some more. I am still planning on doing a Master's A and Master's B grouping. I will think about having another separate starting group for Master's Riders only but not really excited about spending even more time out at the race, it is a long enough day as it is.
I would think Master's 35+ A would be in the A group, Master 45+ A&B in the B Group (if someone feels like they needed a faster group they could possibly race regular Cat 3 at this point). Master's 35+ B would be in the B group.
One thing I have a hard time understanding is why everyone is so worried about whom they are lining up with. You are only competing with people in your particular group. The other categories will provide you a large field (in my eyes more fun) and will most likely push you a bit more (help you get faster). Are people really more interested in not racing with someone younger, but end up having 1/2 as many people to race with (even though 50% or so of them aren't even in your scoring/points category)? Please explain further.
I certainly want people to be happy and have a good time. If some people are not happy with the groupings I propose that they hold some cross races of their own the way they think it should be done (more races would be great I think). If this new groupings were popular then we could all switch over.
Let the flaming continue :)
Groupings Again
Hey all,
Just so you know, some people read my message and thought I was getting upset. I am not mad at all, I understand everyone's concerns and definitely want to hear them. I am all for constructive criticism.
Groupings, masters, etc.
I thought the race groupings last year worked great. The group sizes were pretty decent, and the courses were set up well so all the fast riders (everyone else) could pass the slow rider (me) in a safe manner. I think newcomers felt comfortable trying out the "C" race both in terms of competitors and race duration, fast riders could get some great competition in the "A" race, and the "B" race provided a good test for those riders seeking to improve their skills/fitness/competitiveness. The time to sub-divide the fields is when field size increases to the point that those with varying skill levels impede the flow of the race, and we are not there yet.
Master Groupings
Brad,
More of a question than a comment. Have the groupings for this fall been decided? I can't really tell by reading all the messages whether they are determined or still being considered. Also, I don't think there is such a thing as a Cat 5 cyclocross category. I'm at the bottom of the food chain, and I'm a 54 year old Cat 4. Here's my thoughts after the last two years of cross racing. But, if the categories have been determined then just disregard.
>The Masters 55+ road group had solid attendance this last SWICA season. Might work for cross, too. (C race group)
>Last year there were "Master 35+ and 45+ A & B riders". We all knew who they/we were. Go back and look at last years standings. Pretty clear. I think the Masters 'A' should be in the B group, and the Masters 'B' should race in the C group. Score them seperatly but race them together with the other Cat racers in each 'Group'. That way you have an A group, B group and C group, and if you need, a D group for beginners and juniors.
>Clearly, Cat 1-2 should race A group, Cat 3 should race B group, and Cat 4 should race C group. Therefore, if you are a Masters 45+A Cat 3 you are a B group racer, Masters 35+A/Cat 3 you are a B group. If you are a 51 year old Cat 4, you might want to think about the C group. If you kick some butt, move up.
Groupings
I haven't read all the replies yet so this is response to your group questions. My races groups have been decided thus far, if we have more than a few 55+ show up I will considering adding it as another group. There is no cat 5 in cross.
You can view the Eagle Island race on the calendar with links to the race webpage as well.
Here is the link if you don't want to look at the calendar thread.
http://idahocyclocross.com/eagleisland.html
Mass Start
Why dont we just have a mass start with a big hill or something to break up the groups and have all the categories race for an hour. (women\men Juniors 14, 16, 18;, women\men Masters 35, 45, 55; women\men Road Cat 1, 2, 3, 4, 5; women\men Cyclocross A,B,C,D's: previous categories mentioned sport, expert, single speed, fixed gear, bananna seater, bmx, recumbent, etc.; whatever other category you can think up) so it makes it easier to put on a race. Everyone can then list their age and mtn or road category in the results and everyone can figure out if they are the best depending on their goals rather than having to make the race organizers figure it out for them by breaking it into divisions of 5-6 people. With the amount of people that are racing around here this seems to make more sense than adding more divisions and making the races more complicated to put on and spending 10+ hours at the venue and another 10 figuring out the results. I would think it would be more fun to race against a huge group of people rather than 20 or 30 max, and not make to much difference in the big scheme of things if you wanted to get upgraded to go do a race nationally your results would probably still show that you were capable of doing the category that you were trying to race at.
Exactly
I've tried to push for this idea locally and nobody ever likes the sound of it. This is exactly how the Inland Northwest Cyclocross Series worked when I raced up in Spokane and Coeur D'Alene in 2006. Everyone lines up in one giant pack and they send the categories off in 60 second waves. So the whole group is off and on the course within 5-6 minutes (like a MTB race). I'd imagine it might get confusing with a huge group but they had close to our numbers and kept it all straight. Also, once you're lapped by the lead person your race is done. So you may end up one lap shorter then somebody else in your category, in which case they beat you. The race is 60minutes... but it just ends up automatically being shorter for the lower categories with the lapped rule.
Eric's comments
Eric,
You are right. I know the Walla Walla races are just as you state. Mass start, everyone rides the same amount of time, and when the first guy to finish the 50 minutes, race over. You might be 1- 2 laps down and still be the winner of some category you were racing in. The guy in Walla Walla didn't indicate that when you got lapped you were done, but maybe they do it that way.
If you are looking to shorten the day, make for better racing, and yes having to deal with rider traffic is part of racing, then I think you are 100% right on.
Some race promoter should give this a try this year.
Won't be Me
Sorry guys, as fun as it sounds for some of us I imagine quite a few of the beginners and serious riders wouldn't like all the lapping, slowing and waiting for people, trying to pass not to mention the incredibly crappy job whomever was supposed to time and keep track of lapped riders. It won't be this promoter.
timing chips save time
brad s. the beauty of this idea is that neither you, friends, or this monkey need to time anything. use a chip system. surely someone in town has one. i would pay more money if it would mean you get out of there earlier and don't have to worry about keeping time and track of lapped riders. or when someone gets lapped they could divert into a different course with sand pits and run-ups until the end of the race. i know avoiding that fate would increase my efforts to not get lapped. . i think the lapping would work itself out. think about it, the race would be done in an hour, and maybe a bit more if you have a kids race. more time for lounging after the suffering. it isn't to late to change the format. mass starts rule.
Spendy!
I know Brad has looked into the chips before and couldn't make it work with how much they cost. Not everyone would be willing to pay a bunch more... but if it was reasonable, I agree it would be very cool.
chips
i will check on some chip things and if it seems workable i will email you with some pricing.
Chips
Spondoro is usually $4 a rider per day I believe
You might check with Vern Padaca about dealing with the company as well
reports are mixed
Chip System & Mass Start
That would work, if I ever have an extra $500 minimum fee and the +$2.50 or whatever it is per person, per race to pay someone to do that I would consider it :)
The shute system might work. For this year I am not willing to change everything around, I am sorry. I will consider trying it next year perhaps and see how it goes for one of the races though.
chips
I have eaten nothing but chips this entire summer. I like the salt and vinegar.
Chips
We raced mtb. races all summer with mass starts, no chips and had times. They used the 'Chute" to get you recorded in order of finish. They used a number on the bike, one on your back and then posted it to the board in order of placement. Someone should check with Broken Spoke, they had timed short track mtb. races and can lend an opinion.
It doens't matter much to me, I'm going to be slow no matter how the groups are divided.
Masters races
How about a Mass-Lemans Style Start on a figure eight course?
S.W.I.C.A
One reason to race a Masters B Cat 3/4 and Masters A Cat 1/2/3 is that we can integrate into the whole race season. It is a shame we do all of these cyclocross races and get zero S.W.I.C.A points. Also, if cyclocross were included in S.W.I.C.A, a lot of pressure would fall on people to try cyclocross just to keep their roadie/TT position on the boards.
I asked Kurt Holzer why cyclocross is not considered in the southwest idaho points schedule and he said that it wasn't possible because cyclocross has weird groupings.
That is a very good reason to used the roadie groupings I mentioned earlier.
SWICA
Then you would also have to include. MTB. Talk about a category mess!
Why?
MTB and cyclocross are different specialties. I don't see how including cyclocross into SWICA necessitates any involvement with MTB. If MTB wants into SWICA, then they can do the necessary grouping changes to make that happen. Of course this is unlikely. Cyclocross groupings are only slightly different than SWICA categories anyhow and the change would not be that dramatic.
Because!
If you visit the S.W.I.C. web site (http://www.idahobikeracing.org/Idaho_NORBA_Mountain_Bike_R.html) they have MTB and all the series races listed on the site. Every race, Road, Cross, MTB, Triathlon, etc. is on the calendar. Seems to me that makes it a legitimate sport.
Cyclocross is different than Road racing, and MTB. If there is to be a Best Area Rider and it includes Cross, then MTB should be part as well. Maybe Track when the Velodrome is built!
Is it not good enough that there is a Best Area Riders for Road, a winners of the MTB Series and winners of the Cross Series. They are all separate disciplines and should be scored and treated that way.
SWICA
Mike's dead on. The different disciplines in no way belong together in my book. Even though there really isn't much difference in categories the racing is completely different and it doesn't make sense to combine. Especially to somewhat arbitrarily combine two disciplines just because some people happen to race in both. I mean the bikes do sort of look the same, but that's about where the similarities stop. It's so different that USA Cycling has now completely split cyclocross into their own grouping which is not tied to road (or mtb) at all anymore and actually requires a separate license of it's own.
Now if there was ever a SWICA stage race that combined several disciplines (road, tt, cross, track, mtb, etc) into one event, then I think we'd have an argument... and a really cool race. :)
huh?
man im confused! i thought id try masters 35+ this year, just to prove i can suck at just about any level.